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Freedom Collection

Interviews with Lech Walesa

Interviewed November 26, 2024

When their [Poland’s Communist regime] law and order people came for me [during Poland’s period of martial law from 1981 – 1983], I said to them, and this is a matter of public record, I said I was the winner here, and you guys are the losers – that you have just driven the last nails into the coffin of Communism. And up to this point everything I said was correct, but then I wound up going one-half sentence too far. I said, you will be coming back on your knees and begging me to help you out of this bind. So there I was carrying it too far.

I was completely convinced of it; to this day I marvel at the absolute confidence of victory I had – utterly certain that it was going to happen. Because I guess I was looking at things not from a theoretical standpoint, but from a practical one. You know that civilization – the Internet – well, perhaps not the Internet yet, but satellite television at the time – that all these novelties were advancing so quickly that Communism was losing the battle of development – that Communism would have had to engage more and more resources into repression and guarding things.

Like when satellite television was coming in, they would have practically had to introduce a policeman in every building to make sure you tuned in to the right channels. Or that when cell phones were coming in, that we would not dial-up whoever were the “forces” they did not want you to talk with. And in this way, it was a struggle against development, against technology and this had a bearing on the fact that Communism at the time was moving at one-tenth the pace of capitalism. So as a result it had no chance, it was already a loser, but the problem then was, “How do you exit?”, “How do you not have bloodshed?”, “How do you win against them?”, and this was something for me to mull over.

And it was the only thing to think about, not that they might win. They could not win, and the fact is, had they chosen to go along with these advances, they would have lost anyway. So Communism in that time was beaten one way or the other, because technology would not have let it prevail. It had to because it did not square with technological advancement; it does not square with satellite television; it does not square with cellphones; it does not square with the Internet. Because it slows things down, it bogs down, and it lies and then all that means that it was wrong for the times.

At a certain time in the past, when machinery was being introduced, for instance, capitalism started growing. All these manufacturing plants, all these capitalists were misbehaving. For a certain time it was a justifiable [idea]. Because of all the wrongdoing, because of the injustice, because the whole game then was so egregiously wrong that people had to stand up for themselves.

So at a certain stage of development Communism was justifiable, but then the communists wrote in their slogans that they would introduce order and justice, but they were just slogans. And in reality they introduced no such thing. As an example, they appropriated charity, yet they were never charitable because they did not have the resources to be charitable since they were so unproductive.