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Freedom Collection

Interviews with Lech Walesa

Interviewed November 26, 2024

The simplest way to put it is this: if you cannot lift a load by yourself, then go ask some others who will help you lift it. There are various burdens or loads: they can be local, they can be national, European or even global. And so for each of these loads or difficulties you need to match willing assistants that will help you lift them. Communism was difficult to fight against because this was, as I said before, a great military and nuclear power, and so such assistance was absolutely crucial, because we would not have been able to shoulder that burden which Communism was. Of course, it does have that obligation, yes, but then you have to frame this obligation against the times in which we live, places that we inhabit.

We so often forget what democracy is. Democracy itself is made up of three components: one-third of democracy is the laws and constitutions which allow or do not allow taking action of various sorts; the next third is whether a given society uses those rights, engages, forms political parties, takes the trouble to vote; and the last third, in this frame of reference, is a checkbook of sorts, but conceived on a mass scale – the wealth of a society, whether that society is able to defend itself, to not be afraid about employment, and many items such as that. This is the Lech Walesa formula for democracy, and you can use this formula anywhere to find out what the condition of a given democracy is. You know, for any given moment and each place it would be slightly different.

The times we live in are highly normalized – we have pluralism, democracy, the free market. And each country that has these dimensions, and the better they are, the more it is able to fit itself into these puzzles, in their varieties and types. Anyone who does not have these dimensions, a country that does not really fit in will be marginalized, but again, all these processes, they cannot be implemented overnight. Belarus, for instance, is highly dependent on Russia, you know, for their electricity, their gas and their fuels and so it is really not able to stand up for itself because all you have to do is turn off that tap and you don’t really have to fight them very hard.

They will come back on their knees and beg you to open that tap again. And so if Europe, or the world, intends to help Belarus, then they have to prepare, to set up all those other strategic things, and then say, well, if Russia acts one way or another then the electricity will stay on by another means, and Belarus will be able to manage. Now with Cuba it is a bit of a different story. You could hook up Cuba somewhat faster to the West – but, well, there you have it: Democracies as highly developed as the United States do not really engage, do not really apply pressure, and I don’t know, perhaps don’t really want Cuba to join up with them all that soon.

So therefore you have to see the process, or even the struggle, in Cuba differently from the possibilities and opportunities open to Belarus, as an example.