Back to all interviews
Freedom Collection

Interviews with Lech Walesa

Interviewed November 26, 2024

Gorbachev [Mikhail Gorbachev, last President of the Soviet Union and General Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, served from 1985 to 1991] is a decent man, but he was not a man about to fight against Communism. He was about wanting to save Communism. Seeing what is going on, he proposed an overhaul of Communism, believing deeply that he would be successful in this. Now, we are good friends, we are both retired already. So when I would meet with him, I would always ask him two questions.

For starters, you know, “Did you betray Communism?” He would always say, no. Then I would say, “But listen, you are a bright man, so did you really believe that you could overhaul Communism?” And here is the part where he gets upset with me, because he winds up looking either as a traitor against Communism, or as a naïve individual who trusted that you could cut some slack, and then reform it from there and believe that Communism would not fall. So then he played a constructive part, so we are clear, because without Gorbachev it is hard to even imagine all of it. But not in spite of himself, but rather in assessing the situation in a clear headed way.

So he had the tools of violence, but he did not exercise violence. And again, I considered this possibility, [because] when Gorbachev came to power, we were sufficiently strong already, we had built up to a level, both in Poland and in the world at large, that anyone wanting to stop this thing would have had to kill between one million to ten million people.

He was not prepared to do that. He tried, he shot a few people in Lithuania, some in Estonia, but he got it that the resistance was even greater, so he didn’t continue on this path – he tried rather to escape into the future. He tried reforming. So it ended the way it ended. So we have to recognize he is a constructive actor, though under compulsion and not as a volunteer. He did not plan this departure from Communism.